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  • #61
    Originally posted by dannyboy8517 View Post

    If you live in a world where 2017 is the only season that's ever been played and the production therein will be repeated in perpetuity, then sure, Nick Martinez is Ian Kennedy and Jordan Zimmerman's equal. Here in the real world, that's a laughable assertion. Would there be risk in taking on an Ian Kennedy or Jordan Zimmerman? Certainly. If there wasn't, they wouldn't be available for a player like Choo. But the upside on both players is a solid middle-of-the-rotation innings eater, which is far more valuable to this team than a $20 million outfielder who can't field and hasn't shown any ability to hit out of the DH spot. And that upside certainly couldn't be matched by a player like Nick Martinez, who is at his very best a swingman.
    no one says he is their equal but they cost you seven times what he does. you love war except when it goes against your wild *** schemes. choo isnt going to be traded for one of those guys and I have no confidence in banister and brocail to turn them around.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by rainag View Post

      no one says he is their equal but they cost you seven times what he does. you love war except when it goes against your wild *** schemes. choo isnt going to be traded for one of those guys and I have no confidence in banister and brocail to turn them around.
      That money is already spent. It's going to be going to one overpaid player or another. I'd rather it be used on a position of significant need and give Choo's roster spot to a young player who a) is ready for the promotion and b) could benefit hugely from the playing time next year. And frankly, I struggle to see how such an opinion qualifies as a wild @$$ scheme.

      And I don't even know what point you're trying to make about WAR. If it's that Kennedy and Zimmerman sucked last year, you're arguing with yourself. They were both terrible. Despite that, both offer significantly more upside going forward than does Martinez, who will never be more than a replacement level player.
      Last edited by dannyboy8517; 11-14-2017, 10:29 AM.

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      • #63
        I have a wild assed scheme...Trade Cole Hamels and Shinn Soo Choo to the Yankees for Dellin Betances.
        We would free enough salary to buy a bunch of pitchers.
        I read that Betances is going to be moved. They say he can't throw strikes anymore. To me it's a perfect example of why the Rangers avoid arbitration hearings at all cost.
        Something about taking a player in a room and trashing his game for a couple of hours that leads to hard feelings.
        Betances needs a change of scenery

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        • #64
          Originally posted by dannyboy8517 View Post

          That money is already spent. It's going to be going to one overpaid player or another. I'd rather it be used on a position of significant need and give Choo's roster spot to a young player who a) is ready for the promotion and b) could benefit hugely from the playing time next year. And frankly, I struggle to see how such an opinion qualifies as a wild @$$ scheme.

          And I don't even know what point you're trying to make about WAR. If it's that Kennedy and Zimmerman sucked last year, you're arguing with yourself. They were both terrible. Despite that, both offer significantly more upside going forward than does Martinez, who will never be more than a replacement level player.
          wins above replacement. their replacement is a two million dollar guy that is already here and pitched better than them. yeah the money is spent but putting it into assets that have little chance of performing at even an average mlb level is not a good trade idea. that speaks of desperation just to get a couple of young players extra at bats. If choo does get hurt you have ready replacements at your disposal. I am with red on this. if you have to make a trade like you are supposing just forget it. if you can make a deal for half his salary and get nothing but some remote prospect it is a better deal than being married to slugs that cant pitch for 3 more years

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Terry C View Post
            I have a wild assed scheme...Trade Cole Hamels and Shinn Soo Choo to the Yankees for Dellin Betances.
            We would free enough salary to buy a bunch of pitchers.
            I read that Betances is going to be moved. They say he can't throw strikes anymore. To me it's a perfect example of why the Rangers avoid arbitration hearings at all cost.
            Something about taking a player in a room and trashing his game for a couple of hours that leads to hard feelings.
            Betances needs a change of scenery
            I would be interested in betances. not sure that deal would have a chance in hell just because there is no role at all in NY for him. They would have to make separate deals to move him or another outfielder

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            • #66
              Originally posted by dannyboy8517 View Post

              That money is already spent. It's going to be going to one overpaid player or another. I'd rather it be used on a position of significant need and give Choo's roster spot to a young player who a) is ready for the promotion and b) could benefit hugely from the playing time next year. And frankly, I struggle to see how such an opinion qualifies as a wild @$$ scheme.

              And I don't even know what point you're trying to make about WAR. If it's that Kennedy and Zimmerman sucked last year, you're arguing with yourself. They were both terrible. Despite that, both offer significantly more upside going forward than does Martinez, who will never be more than a replacement level player.
              I am the last guy to defend martinez just ask kaiser. The problem is you want to lock in to terrible contracts with pitchers just because they are pitchers. wait until they are in the heart of your rotation and throwing 6 eras behind this outfield defense and you wont be thinking it is such a good idea. at least a guy like martinez costs 2 million and when someone emerges next summer you can dump his ***. These guys you are going to be married to for awhile

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              • #67
                Originally posted by rainag View Post

                wins above replacement. their replacement is a two million dollar guy that is already here and pitched better than them. yeah the money is spent but putting it into assets that have little chance of performing at even an average mlb level is not a good trade idea. that speaks of desperation just to get a couple of young players extra at bats. If choo does get hurt you have ready replacements at your disposal. I am with red on this. if you have to make a trade like you are supposing just forget it. if you can make a deal for half his salary and get nothing but some remote prospect it is a better deal than being married to slugs that cant pitch for 3 more years
                Ian Kennedy was a 4 WAR starter in 2016. He had success in a hitter's park in Arizona and has had only two seasons in eight since becoming an established starter with an ERA above 4.28.

                Jordan Zimmerman averaged 3.7 WAR per season from 2011-15.

                Yes, both have struggled in their most recent seasons, but these are established major league starters with legitimate big league success in the not-too-distant past, something Martinez can't and won't ever be able to claim. I think both are fair bets to rebound and pitch at least like a passable No. 4, which is another thing Martinez can't do.

                If we had used your logic here last year, we would have never signed Andrew Cashner -- a move that worked out pretty well for us. I view Kennedy and Zimmerman as similar bounce-back candidates, and though they'd be more expensive, it would simply be a redistribution of funds already spent, lessening the burden of those contracts.
                Last edited by dannyboy8517; 11-14-2017, 04:34 PM.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by rainag View Post

                  I am the last guy to defend martinez just ask kaiser. The problem is you want to lock in to terrible contracts with pitchers just because they are pitchers. wait until they are in the heart of your rotation and throwing 6 eras behind this outfield defense and you wont be thinking it is such a good idea. at least a guy like martinez costs 2 million and when someone emerges next summer you can dump his ***. These guys you are going to be married to for awhile
                  We're already locked into a terrible contract with Choo for the exact the same length of time. All you'd be doing here is changing who you're chained to.

                  And I think it's a mistake to assume that Kennedy and Zimmerman will repeat their 2017 performance the next three years. Last season was a major outlier for both pitcher. There's a chance, obviously, that they could be done and that was the beginning of the end. But it's more likely that they'll rebound to at least a passable level for at least part of what's left on their contracts. And since Choo comes with the exact same risks at a position of surplus, I'd rather take the risk on a pitcher and let the kids absorb the at-bats.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by dannyboy8517 View Post

                    We're already locked into a terrible contract with Choo for the exact the same length of time. All you'd be doing here is changing who you're chained to.

                    And I think it's a mistake to assume that Kennedy and Zimmerman will repeat their 2017 performance the next three years. Last season was a major outlier for both pitcher. There's a chance, obviously, that they could be done and that was the beginning of the end. But it's more likely that they'll rebound to at least a passable level for at least part of what's left on their contracts. And since Choo comes with the exact same risks at a position of surplus, I'd rather take the risk on a pitcher and let the kids absorb the at-bats.
                    Or it could make things even worse. I still think Choo will be better than either Zimmermann or Kennedy (particularly since Kennedy is on the wrong side of 30).

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Redcap View Post

                      Or it could make things even worse. I still think Choo will be better than either Zimmermann or Kennedy (particularly since Kennedy is on the wrong side of 30).
                      Choo is on the wrong side of 35. If you're concerned about age, he's the far biggest risk.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by dannyboy8517 View Post

                        Choo is on the wrong side of 35. If you're concerned about age, he's the far biggest risk.
                        Steamer is already projecting Kennedy to put up a plus 5 era next year. I'd rather trade Choo, eat some contract and come away with a magic bean to put in the system. Nick Martinez could put up a 5 plus era for a lot less money.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Redcap View Post

                          Steamer is already projecting Kennedy to put up a plus 5 era next year. I'd rather trade Choo, eat some contract and come away with a magic bean to put in the system. Nick Martinez could put up a 5 plus era for a lot less money.
                          I put zero stock in projections, which are little more than fodder to get desperate fans through the offseason. I'll bet anyone who will take it that, barring major injury, Kennedy will throw at least 60 more innings than Martinez with a lower ERA in 2017.

                          I also don't think anyone's going to give up a prospect for Choo. We'd have to eat at least half his salary just to make anyone want him to begin with.
                          Last edited by dannyboy8517; 11-14-2017, 07:58 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Sign one of the top 4 FA starters

                            Choo and Rua for Kennedy, no money exchanged(saving us $4million)

                            Profar, Guzman and Jurado for Josh Donaldson and a controllable RP

                            Buy Donaldson out of his last arb year and extend him 7/150

                            Add some small FA pieces

                            Hamels
                            Darvish/Cobb/Arrieta
                            Perez
                            Kennedy
                            Mikolas

                            CF DeShields
                            SS Andrus
                            DH Beltre
                            3B Donaldson
                            RF Mazara
                            1B Gallo
                            LF Calhoun
                            C Chirinos
                            2B Odor


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                            • #74
                              I'm not quite sure why everyone feels as though Mikolas is the second coming of Colby Lewis. He's not the first American pitcher to put up good stats in the Japanese league but can't pitch in the bigs. Colby was actually a real live prospect before his injuries took him down and he went to Japan to recover. Mikolas has never been anything.

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                              • #75
                                I think I'll go with Steamer over anything Dannyboy says about this. He's bent on rushing Guzman and moving Gallo to DH or somewhere no matter under what crazy trade. The trade makes zero sense and hurts the team.

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