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  • Originally posted by dannyboy8517 View Post

    What turned the Astros into a perennial loser was not their decision to rebuild. It was their decision to go all-in with middling teams and refusal to retool. The 2006-2010 seasons set that organization back WAAAAAYYYYYYY farther than 2011-2014, which put them on the track to their current destination. Had the Astros done what they should have after their last playoff season in 2005 or even a year later in 2006 -- sold off some pieces and gotten younger -- their total tear down likely wouldn't have been necessary. Instead, they kept throwing expensive .500 teams on the field and allowed their farm system to wither on the vine in the process.

    The Rangers are where the Astros were in 2006. We can either follow their lead and keep throwing good money after bad, finish at or around .500 and end up needing a full-scale rebuild in a few years anyway. Or ... we can make some proactive moves now that will put this team back on the path to contention within a year or two and leave us much healthier in the long run. I know which one of those I'm choosing. And I'm baffled by the number of people on this site that don't understand that these are our two choices.
    I'm baffled too. Some fans don't think logically. Truth=what they wish was true.

    Comment


    • If JD doesn't believe we can resign Yu then we need to trade him. If trading Yu doesn't hurt our chances of resigning Yu then we need to trade him and then attempt to resign him! I hate to say it but trading Yu is our best chance of keeping our window open longer, if you believe it's still open. He's the most valuable trade chip we have and we cannot simply get a 1st round pick for him. Trade Yu to the Dodgers for Urias and see what they say. I'd take any pitcher we feel will be ready to be a front line starter in the next two years for Yu.

      People need to be realistic, we aren't as talented as the Astros and we're not going to get as talented by sitting on our hands and hoping we can somehow make one last playoff run this year. With the right deal and a great offseason we could compete next year. IF we were able to resign Yu and sign Ohtani we could contend next year even if we traded Cole Hamels!

      Trade or no trade I will trust JD. He's done a great job of putting us in a position to contend year in and year out.
      Buy a shirt and help support my wife and I as we adopt our daughter Lily Grace! www.adoptionbug.com/lilygrace/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by kennyt12 View Post
        If JD doesn't believe we can resign Yu then we need to trade him. If trading Yu doesn't hurt our chances of resigning Yu then we need to trade him and then attempt to resign him! I hate to say it but trading Yu is our best chance of keeping our window open longer, if you believe it's still open. He's the most valuable trade chip we have and we cannot simply get a 1st round pick for him. Trade Yu to the Dodgers for Urias and see what they say. I'd take any pitcher we feel will be ready to be a front line starter in the next two years for Yu.

        People need to be realistic, we aren't as talented as the Astros and we're not going to get as talented by sitting on our hands and hoping we can somehow make one last playoff run this year. With the right deal and a great offseason we could compete next year. IF we were able to resign Yu and sign Ohtani we could contend next year even if we traded Cole Hamels!

        Trade or no trade I will trust JD. He's done a great job of putting us in a position to contend year in and year out.
        Fantastic post. Could not agree more.

        Comment


        • Y'all are rewriting history. The Astros started retooling from the minors long before that. It's been a decade-long nightmare of rebuilding for them. All they did was lose the LDS so far. If we beat them in the postseason it will be the biggest embarrassment in baseball.

          To say the Astros threw expensive .500 teams on the field from 2006-2010 is ludicrous. They sent cheap teams out there that lost and they got lots of high draft picks, it's just that few of them panned out. They only finished above third place during that time once, and that was second place. They finished 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th and 4th! They got high draft picks. Traded away players, too, almost every season during that span. It just didn't work. Sure, they kept a few marquee players to sell tickets, but it's not like they didn't get good draft picks and trade anyone when they kept losing. It simply failed. And that's what you can expect will happen if the Rangers don't keep trying to win.

          You're right. If you keep putting cheap teams out there every year like the Astros did for a decade, you'll lose and be a .500 team. There has rarely been an expensive Astros team, certainly not in the last decade. And it's not like the Rangers are going to put a cheap loser team on the field like the Astros did all that time anytime soon.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by kennyt12 View Post
            People need to be realistic, we aren't as talented as the Astros and we're not going to get as talented by sitting on our hands and hoping we can somehow make one last playoff run this year.
            The Rangers have no intention of sitting on their hands. If they lose this season they will go out on the free agent market and get the best players they can and spend millions. Y'all are confusing the Rangers with some slip-shod third-world team like the Astros who went for a decade not spending much of anything. If the Rangers need players they will get them, by hook or by crook. They can walk and chew gum at the same time, unlike the Marlinesque Astros whose only path to winning is to lose for a decade. The Rangers can both win now and in the future. They can put a competitive team on the field every year and rebuild the farm simultaneously because they have the money to be like that and some of the best, supportive fans in baseball. This isn't the old Rangers and hasn't been for seven years. There's a lot more winning ahead and they aren't going to skip years of winning.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Flounder1 View Post

              The Rangers have no intention of sitting on their hands. If they lose this season they will go out on the free agent market and get the best players they can and spend millions. Y'all are confusing the Rangers with some slip-shod third-world team like the Astros who went for a decade not spending much of anything. If the Rangers need players they will get them, by hook or by crook. They can walk and chew gum at the same time, unlike the Marlinesque Astros whose only path to winning is to lose for a decade. The Rangers can both win now and in the future. They can put a competitive team on the field every year and rebuild the farm simultaneously because they have the money to be like that and some of the best, supportive fans in baseball. This isn't the old Rangers and hasn't been for seven years. There's a lot more winning ahead and they aren't going to skip years of winning.
              What do you actually believe our chances are of winning it all this year? I'd put it at around 5% or less. But I believe if we make the right trades now we can improve our chance of actually winning next year. Sure we could spend a lot of money hoping to fix all of our problems but how often does that actually work?
              Buy a shirt and help support my wife and I as we adopt our daughter Lily Grace! www.adoptionbug.com/lilygrace/

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Flounder1 View Post

                The Rangers have no intention of sitting on their hands. If they lose this season they will go out on the free agent market and get the best players they can and spend millions. Y'all are confusing the Rangers with some slip-shod third-world team like the Astros who went for a decade not spending much of anything. If the Rangers need players they will get them, by hook or by crook. They can walk and chew gum at the same time, unlike the Marlinesque Astros whose only path to winning is to lose for a decade. The Rangers can both win now and in the future. They can put a competitive team on the field every year and rebuild the farm simultaneously because they have the money to be like that and some of the best, supportive fans in baseball. This isn't the old Rangers and hasn't been for seven years. There's a lot more winning ahead and they aren't going to skip years of winning.
                Next year I'd love to have a rotation of Yu, Hamels, Ohtani, Perez, and Urias! yeah, we'd have to spend money in the offseason for Yu and Ohtani but we'd also need to deal Yu this year to have the opportunity for another young up and coming starter!
                Buy a shirt and help support my wife and I as we adopt our daughter Lily Grace! www.adoptionbug.com/lilygrace/

                Comment


                • Hardly any fans agree with the idea of a tear down. Most want to Rangers to be buyers. From the ESPN poll of avid Rangers fans ...
                  Image2.jpg

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Flounder1 View Post
                    Hardly any fans agree with the idea of a tear down. Most want to Rangers to be buyers. From the ESPN poll of avid Rangers fans ...
                    {"data-align":"none","data-size":"custom","height":"350","title":"Image2.jpg","width":"574","data-attachmentid":432815}
                    And 26% want to sell off players to retool! I"m not for a rebuild but I am for a retool!
                    Buy a shirt and help support my wife and I as we adopt our daughter Lily Grace! www.adoptionbug.com/lilygrace/

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Flounder1 View Post
                      Hardly any fans agree with the idea of a tear down. Most want to Rangers to be buyers. From the ESPN poll of avid Rangers fans ...
                      {"data-align":"none","data-size":"custom","height":"350","title":"Image2.jpg","width":"574","data-attachmentid":432815}
                      I guess we'll find out in the next 3 weeks what JD wants to do, or feels he needs to do.
                      Buy a shirt and help support my wife and I as we adopt our daughter Lily Grace! www.adoptionbug.com/lilygrace/

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kennyt12 View Post

                        What do you actually believe our chances are of winning it all this year? I'd put it at around 5% or less. But I believe if we make the right trades now we can improve our chance of actually winning next year. Sure we could spend a lot of money hoping to fix all of our problems but how often does that actually work?
                        Who are you going to get to help the Rangers win next year? Again, the Yankees had a huge fire sale last year. Not one of those players they got in a trade a year ago has helped them win this year. The Rangers have no choice. To win next year they have to acquire some pitching and a CF in free agency. Any players they get in a fire sale this month is going to take a couple of years or more to develop into the kind of major league player who can help the team win. Sure, if the Rangers are still two games under .500 at the trade deadline, trade all the guys who are going to be free agents this winter. But, if they are five games over, you don't trade. You try to win this year. If they fail, they are not going to give up on 2018. That's not going to happen.

                        Spending money to to fix problems helps all the time. works all the time. Beltre, Darvish, Choo, Gomez... all are free agents who helped this team win. Ross and Cashner are added to that list and are helping now. We'll see what happens, but to say you can't spend money to fix problems is simply not true. It has worked, is working and works all the time. Look at all the free agents helping other teams, too.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kennyt12 View Post

                          Next year I'd love to have a rotation of Yu, Hamels, Ohtani, Perez, and Urias! yeah, we'd have to spend money in the offseason for Yu and Ohtani but we'd also need to deal Yu this year to have the opportunity for another young up and coming starter!
                          I'd like a rotation like that, too.

                          If we are losing at the deadline and can't get Darvish to sign on the dotted line for the future by then, I'm all for trading Darvish. I'd much rather we are winning, and win big the next 16 games. and try to get into the postseason where anything can happen. If anyone doesn't think anything can happen, what happened the last time we played the Nationals, Yankees and Astros? We beat them, that's what.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Flounder1 View Post
                            Y'all are rewriting history. The Astros started retooling from the minors long before that. It's been a decade-long nightmare of rebuilding for them. All they did was lose the LDS so far. If we beat them in the postseason it will be the biggest embarrassment in baseball.

                            To say the Astros threw expensive .500 teams on the field from 2006-2010 is ludicrous. They sent cheap teams out there that lost and they got lots of high draft picks, it's just that few of them panned out. They only finished above third place during that time once, and that was second place. They finished 2nd, 4th, 3rd, 5th and 4th! They got high draft picks. Traded away players, too, almost every season during that span. It just didn't work. Sure, they kept a few marquee players to sell tickets, but it's not like they didn't get good draft picks and trade anyone when they kept losing. It simply failed. And that's what you can expect will happen if the Rangers don't keep trying to win.

                            You're right. If you keep putting cheap teams out there every year like the Astros did for a decade, you'll lose and be a .500 team. There has rarely been an expensive Astros team, certainly not in the last decade. And it's not like the Rangers are going to put a cheap loser team on the field like the Astros did all that time anytime soon.
                            You're the one trying to rewrite history, Carl. The Astros average payroll from 2006-2010 was $92,918,566, and they cracked the top half of the major leagues in every single one of those seasons, including top-eight figures in 2006 and 2009. Their farm system rankings in those years -- largely due to win-now deadline deals -- were 20th (2006), 22nd (2007), 29th (2008), 30th (2009) and 30th (2010). Their reward for that strategy: an average of 78 wins, zero playoff appearances and a top-down rebuild that lasted an additional four seasons to achieve competitiveness.

                            The Astros tried to hold on with their Oswalt, Rodriguez, Berkman, Pence, Lee, Bourne core far longer than they should have, and by the time they finally started trading those guys, their remaining major league roster was devoid of young building blocks and their farm system had been so gutted that they had no choice but to start over.

                            If the Rangers continue on the path you're suggesting, they'll find themselves exactly where the Astros were during that time period and in need of the one thing you want least -- a full-scale rebuild. Your reluctance to accept that does it make it less true.
                            Last edited by dannyboy8517; 07-14-2017, 01:25 AM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Flounder1 View Post

                              Who are you going to get to help the Rangers win next year? Again, the Yankees had a huge fire sale last year. Not one of those players they got in a trade a year ago has helped them win this year. The Rangers have no choice. To win next year they have to acquire some pitching and a CF in free agency. Any players they get in a fire sale this month is going to take a couple of years or more to develop into the kind of major league player who can help the team win. Sure, if the Rangers are still two games under .500 at the trade deadline, trade all the guys who are going to be free agents this winter. But, if they are five games over, you don't trade. You try to win this year. If they fail, they are not going to give up on 2018. That's not going to happen.

                              Spending money to to fix problems helps all the time. works all the time. Beltre, Darvish, Choo, Gomez... all are free agents who helped this team win. Ross and Cashner are added to that list and are helping now. We'll see what happens, but to say you can't spend money to fix problems is simply not true. It has worked, is working and works all the time. Look at all the free agents helping other teams, too.
                              I'd rather develop players than spend money on the Choo's and the Fielders of the world. Yankees kept throwing money at their problems but it didn't result in more championships, they did it through their system. Urias is the guy I'd target to help us next year and the 4 after that! Our offense will need some help as well.
                              Buy a shirt and help support my wife and I as we adopt our daughter Lily Grace! www.adoptionbug.com/lilygrace/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Flounder1 View Post

                                I'd like a rotation like that, too.

                                If we are losing at the deadline and can't get Darvish to sign on the dotted line for the future by then, I'm all for trading Darvish. I'd much rather we are winning, and win big the next 16 games. and try to get into the postseason where anything can happen. If anyone doesn't think anything can happen, what happened the last time we played the Nationals, Yankees and Astros? We beat them, that's what.
                                I wouldn't mind waiting two weeks to make the move. It would give us more clarity.

                                You people need to sleep. I"m in Shanghai for a month.
                                Buy a shirt and help support my wife and I as we adopt our daughter Lily Grace! www.adoptionbug.com/lilygrace/

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