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  • Originally posted by Redcap View Post
    You are far from the only one who wants to sell the entire team and wait 4 to 6 years to see results. Might as well trade Odor, Gallo, Deshields, and Mazara too.
    Please point me to anyone saying that the Rangers should sell everyone and wait 4 to 6 years to be competitive. I have not seen anyone advocate that. You just made it up in your own mind and then ascribe it to everyone else. Own it - you made it up out of thin air. Why?

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    • Originally posted by Doug View Post

      Please point me to anyone saying that the Rangers should sell everyone and wait 4 to 6 years to be competitive. I have not seen anyone advocate that. You just made it up in your own mind and then ascribe it to everyone else. Own it - you made it up out of thin air. Why?
      I guess trading Beltre, Hamels, Darvish, Ross, Cashner, Gomez, Lucroy and Choo isn't a total fire sale. To be competitive, the Rangers would have to bring in 4 rotation starters including a number 1 and a number two along with a centerfielder. To be competitive would cost around 200 million to do. Plus if you've even looked at the team leading the pack and what they have in the minors as prospects, most don't really give the Rangers much of what they don't have already.

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      • Originally posted by RangerDude2016 View Post

        Key phrase being "depending on who they get in the trade market and how successful they are this Winter". If they get only A-ball prospects and don't get any impact free agents this Winter, you're probably right. It will take longer to retake the division. If they can get some near-ready minor league talent or even some major league bullpen help controllable beyond this season and then have some success this Winter, 2018 and 2019 can be very much in play for Texas. But they have to start preparing now. It's possible to trade Darvish and then resign him. It may even be possible to sign both Darvish and Otani. The Dude continues to believe that Profar will be an impact player as soon as next season. If those three things happen, it's possible they could retake the division next year. Especially if they get a decent haul of prospects and/or bullpen help in the next three weeks.
        It would help your case to name some names they should acquire. "Near ready minor league talent" is very nebulous and iffy. How many "near ready minor league talents" miss compared to making a major impact they very next year? It's not that they never do make an impact, but the very next year? That's rare. More typically trading someone like Darvish, the top rental on the market, you get a couple of A-ball guys or AA tops and it takes at least two to three years on average for them to pan out, and some do not pan out ever. Again, in the Yankees fire sale last year which was huge, none have made an impact this year. Not one. There is safety in number in this, and A-ball is where you get the numbers. Feliz and Andrus were our major hauls for Teixeira. It took three years for us to win anything with them. And, Teixeira was not a rental. He had time left on his contract.

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        • Originally posted by Redcap View Post

          I guess trading Beltre, Hamels, Darvish, Ross, Cashner, Gomez, Lucroy and Choo isn't a total fire sale. To be competitive, the Rangers would have to bring in 4 rotation starters including a number 1 and a number two along with a centerfielder. To be competitive would cost around 200 million to do. Plus if you've even looked at the team leading the pack and what they have in the minors as prospects, most don't really give the Rangers much of what they don't have already.
          Yep, some have mentioned selling every name on your list. That is just a fact. Beltre, too.

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          • Originally posted by Redcap View Post

            I guess trading Beltre, Hamels, Darvish, Ross, Cashner, Gomez, Lucroy and Choo isn't a total fire sale. To be competitive, the Rangers would have to bring in 4 rotation starters including a number 1 and a number two along with a centerfielder. To be competitive would cost around 200 million to do. Plus if you've even looked at the team leading the pack and what they have in the minors as prospects, most don't really give the Rangers much of what they don't have already.
            Trade or no trade, sale or no sale... 5 of the guys you mention aren't even under contract next season and Beltre isn't getting any younger!

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            • Originally posted by ProfarMVP View Post

              Trade or no trade, sale or no sale... 5 of the guys you mention aren't even under contract next season and Beltre isn't getting any younger!
              They should try to get Darvish and Gomez to sign now. Perhaps make a move on Ross, too, if he keeps pitching well. Look at the free agent market. Darvish and Ross are perhaps the two best FA pitchers this winter. May as well make an offer now. Beltre shows no sign of slowing down at the plate and still handles 3B well. Keep him next year, and Choo. You can build a team around that next year. It's unproductive to be thinking out longer than a year or two. Replenishing the farm is going to happen, regardless of whether we compete this year and next or not. MLB has no plans to shut down the draft, international signings, waivers and so on. There are players blocked, like Profar and Ibanez, and others we don't necessarily need like Lucroy who can be used to get the relief pitcher we need and some extra prospects. There is no reason we should not compete for a Wild Card if the team is playing well these next 16 games. There is no reason this team cannot put together a post-season team for 2018, too. There is no reason they can't do all that and build the farm back up simultaneously. Look around the league... most top teams do not have home grown pitching. We have to acquire and maintain pitching through free agency, anyway, so making offers to great ones like Darvish is the right thing to do. He may not take it, but an offer should be on the table now.

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              • Flounder1

                The Dude Would love to give you specific names of prospects, but that would require more time than The Dude can spare. Even if he did spend an afternoon looking over hundreds of prospects, it would likely be a waste of time as it's hard enough just to narrow down even major league trade matches.

                David Price fetched several top prospects, the best of which was in the major leagues the very next season.

                Cespedes fetched several top prospects, one of which is already an all-star.

                Cliff Lee also fetched a few top prospects.

                You're correct that prospects don't always pan out the way scouts envision, but their success rate is still far greater than that of draft picks, which is all Texas has to look forward to if they don't trade Darvish and Lucroy.

                EDIT: Gomez will probably fetch a draft pick now too.
                Last edited by RangerDude2016; 07-13-2017, 06:33 AM.

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                • I don't think anyone can seriously advocate trading Hamels unless they lock up Darvish. He's not going to fetch enough of a return right now to make it worth while endeavor.

                  Trading Beltre might be very worthwhile, but it's probably impossible.

                  Trading Choo might be the best thing for the team, but it's unlikely to happen since nobody is going to take his contract.

                  Trading the pending free agents is the only thing being seriously considered, which won't set them back any longer than this season. In fact, it's most likely going to help their chances in 2018 and 2019.

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                  • Flounder1

                    I agree with Darvish, but neither side would take a deal for Ross right now. Ross knows if he pitches well in the second half, he'll command a decent contract. Texas knows if he doesn't pitch well, he won't command too much. Ross is still at great risk for inconsistency and another injury and Texas knows it. It would be foolish to give him a long term contract right now.

                    Best thing to do with Ross is float him as a trade piece to gauge interest. If there is any, maybe take it. If not, let the season play itself out and see if he has a place on the team next season. Unlike Darvish, there's no reason to rush an extension with Ross.

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                    • Originally posted by Redcap View Post

                      I guess trading Beltre, Hamels, Darvish, Ross, Cashner, Gomez, Lucroy and Choo isn't a total fire sale. To be competitive, the Rangers would have to bring in 4 rotation starters including a number 1 and a number two along with a centerfielder. To be competitive would cost around 200 million to do. Plus if you've even looked at the team leading the pack and what they have in the minors as prospects, most don't really give the Rangers much of what they don't have already.
                      Darvish, Ross, Cashner, Gomez, and Lucroy are all FA's at the end of the season. What part of that don't you understand? They will have to pay someone to man those positions, whether it is them or someone else. The Rangers have to fill 3/5 of their starting rotation next year anyway. To say it has to be with Darvish, Ross, and Cashner or else they will be horrible is a really dumb statement, IMO.

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                      • Originally posted by Doug View Post

                        Darvish, Ross, Cashner, Gomez, and Lucroy are all FA's at the end of the season. What part of that don't you understand? They will have to pay someone to man those positions, whether it is them or someone else. The Rangers have to fill 3/5 of their starting rotation next year anyway. To say it has to be with Darvish, Ross, and Cashner or else they will be horrible is a really dumb statement, IMO.
                        Ok Mr. Smart person, then who do they fill those positions with? Instead of spouting insulting junk, name some names and actual ideas.

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                        • Quintana traded to the Cubbies. What would a similar package of prospects look like on our side? Probably start with Leody and one of Mendez/Jurado?

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                          • Originally posted by Redcap View Post

                            Ok Mr. Smart person, then who do they fill those positions with? Instead of spouting insulting junk, name some names and actual ideas.
                            The point is that they are going to have to refill those positions whether or not they trade those players. You're question is irrelevant to the point.

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                            • Originally posted by RangerDude2016 View Post
                              I don't think anyone can seriously advocate trading Hamels unless they lock up Darvish. He's not going to fetch enough of a return right now to make it worth while endeavor.

                              Trading Beltre might be very worthwhile, but it's probably impossible.

                              Trading Choo might be the best thing for the team, but it's unlikely to happen since nobody is going to take his contract.

                              Trading the pending free agents is the only thing being seriously considered, which won't set them back any longer than this season. In fact, it's most likely going to help their chances in 2018 and 2019.
                              This is where the logic breaks down. You say we can get prospects who can help next year, then name a couple of random guys who are doing OK a year after a trade That is not the typical case, though. Those are outliers. The usual case is a prospect who takes three years to contribute. Trading Beltre is not "worthwhile" next year. He is batting 283/.384/.528. I would not bet on that getting worse with age, but that in fact what you'd be doing by trading and expecting to get someone who is better in a trade. Choo not continuing to get on base like he does in another bad bet. How is that the "best thing?" Trading those two would hurt the team immediately and ruin the next few years until your prospects pan out. It's best to hold on to those and make Darvish and Gomez an offer. There is no better pitcher and CF on the market this winter, so see what you can get done now. Maybe nothing, but it is better than putting up the white flag for the next three years. Keep your good players who are under contract, try to lock up your other two good ones, and have a fire sale for the rest if that is necessary. Hopefully, it won't be. Losing so you can win is totally illogical. You'll wind up like the Astros who couldn't win anything for a decade. It's turning the organization into the Florida Marlins instead of the St. Louis Cardinals.

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                              • Originally posted by RangerDude2016 View Post

                                The point is that they are going to have to refill those positions whether or not they trade those players. You're question is irrelevant to the point.
                                So, what kind of quality free agents are going to sign with a team that tanks the season without seriously overpaying them? I keep hearing about what the Yankees did last year but they traded excess players (they had a rather full bullpen) or older players like Beltran and McCann that they had almost ready replacements for. Yes, they managed to re-sign after trading him but that's more the exception than the rule. Few players re-sign with the team that trades them... particularly if they are doing it to tank the season.

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